musings on using squidgeworld

[quillpunk]

I dived into the tags on SqWA (I think that's the acronym) again recently, and now think I can articulate what it is about the archive that feels a little off to me.

There is not, to my experience, any readership on SqWA.

Naturally this isn't true to everyone, always. There are probably pockets of older users (as in, people that have used the site for a long time) active somewhere in there, and there are probably sporadic readers who pop in, read what they want, and pop out again waiting for new stories. The speed in which stories gets posted to the archive is 100% slow enough that that's achievable without being overwhelming.

But I can't see them. I can not, in fact, spot anyone. But that in itself isn't actually the main thing. It's kind of lonely, but it's not alienating.

But the new users (I know I'm pretty new myself; I certainly don't have a lot of legs to stand on here. But I am Trying™) who are cross-posting all their stuff from AO3 due to dissatisfaction aren't in turn actually reading anything on the site, and that is actually kind of alienating to me. It's a backup archive for them, and to be clear that is a fine and good thing to have. AO3 is not immune to bugs in servers just because they own the servers.

But it honestly feels kind of weird for me, as a reader, to browse through the archive. It doesn't feel like the authors using it are actually there; to put it another way, if I left a comment, would they even notice? Same for kudos.

I've gathered some stuff in my Marked For Later list and I do want to comment on them when I have the spoons, but I'm genuinely not sure it'd be welcomed. Like, comments are on, so they should be, right? But it doesn't feel it. It feels like I'd be imposing and wrestling myself into a space that I'm not welcome in.

Like, part of the appeal of SqWA for me as a reader (I'm a writer as well but honestly that's irrelevent to my current musings) is that I find stories on there I would never have known existed on AO3, simply due to the sheer volume of fics on AO3. It's actually feasible to just browse through all the works and go "interesting" a lot. That's fun! It's cool to spot fandoms I'm not even aware of, and see works I never would have been able to dig my way through on AO3.

But it does also feel a bit weird to read there. I guess another way to put it is; it doesn't feel as if the authors invite readers. (Again, obviously this isn't true for every author, or every work, or every... you get the idea) It's kind of hard to articulate, but it's overwhelmingly my impression that authors cross-posting their stuff from AO3 are using it in a very cold manner, a sort of "don't speak to me, don't look at that, I'm not here, this isn't for you" kind of thing. And I don't know where that comes from, but it makes me feel weird to read and try to engage with their stuff on SqWA.

Actually, I think I just hit the nail on the head; it feels like it's not for me. Like there's an invisible boundary going up and I'm not supposed to look at it.

And I think, after grumbling about it a little in my head, I might mainly be getting this impression from author's who do not say anything when they're very obviously cross-posting stuff from AO3. Like, a fic tossed up with a quick note "first posted on ao3" doesn't give me that impression; it doesn't feel closed off and remote. But a fic with absolutely no notes, where the author profile says they're cross-posting, or where it's empty but they've got a ton of fics posted very quickly, and they have no bookmarks or anything to indicate they're actually there... that does feel like a divide. A boundary. A sign saying "this is not for you, you don't get to enjoy it, go away".

And that's very odd, and sort of off-putting, to me.

Comments

[sl_walker]

I tag-wrangle for Walter sometimes, and I helped write the new header menus. And yeah, SqWA does feel like a ghost town, compared to Ad Astra. I know it's active with tons of posters, but it doesn't feel like anyone's there to read. And I actually kinda do resent people using other archives just as a backup for AO3. (That annoys me when people do it to Ad Astra, too; they'll import with all the chat-style tags and overtagging and then I have to go edit or send an e-mail for them to fix them.)

[quillpunk]

And I actually kinda do resent people using other archives just as a backup for AO3.

Completely understandable! Honestly even as a reader who's not very invested in SqWA (i just haven't spent a lot of time and effort there yet, so I'm not particularly emotionally invested beyond "cool, a fic archive that's not AO3, i sure do hope it lasts a long time") it is still a little annoying to witness so, *so* many stories with no comments. And like I know I'm part of that, but everybody using it is to some extent by now so I'm not gonna guilt-trip myself, sigh.

And people doing it on Ad Astra I imagine must be even more annoying, because when they're tagging like that they're just blatantly displaying they either didn't read the rules or *don't care* about the rules. And either is pretty disrespectful. You have my eternal admiration for the great job you do on Ad Astra's tags, though. They're so readable! No more walls of text to scroll through!

Side-note, I adore sorting things and could give a crack at tag wrangling if you want. I mean I know nothing about it and might not succeed but if it's sorting to any degree I'd probably have fun. XD

[sl_walker]

Have you tried tag wrangling on SqWA? I know Walter always needs a hand there. I've mostly got Ad Astra in hand because after the initial opening, it quieted down and I don't see it needing more than just me right now. But if I ever need backup in case I'm gone or something, I'll come back and ask!

[quillpunk]

I haven't, no. Alas, striking up a conversation out of nowhere is not one of my skills, and as I have no idea how tag wrangling works and am going more on a general "i would really like to give it a try but am kind of worried i'll break something" i don't quite have the confidence to go up and offer, lol. But yes, I would be interested in trying with SqWA!

[sl_walker]

I can give you wrangling permission on Ad Astra if you wanna poke around and look at it

[quillpunk]

ooh, yes, that would be amazing, thank you. *insert heart-eyes here*

[sl_walker]

Will do when I'm home from work.

[mistressofmuses]

It's a shame that it feels that way, because one of the things I was actually tentatively hopeful for when people started using the site was that it could wind up with its own culture, and I'd love for a space that had a culture that felt more geared toward community-building. AO3 IS so huge and sprawling and fast-moving that it is easy to miss things... a smaller, slower-moving site feels more "old-fashioned" (in a good way!), and COULD easily be the sort of place that encourages more direct interaction as opposed to passive consumption. And yet...

I crosspost between AO3 and Sqidge, because I DO want an additional place to host my work as a "just in case." But as far as I know... I've never gotten a single hit on anything on SqWA. I'd absolutely welcome readers and comments and interaction! But you're right that it doesn't seem like anyone IS reading there, and that's a shame.

Then again, I'm part of the problem, because I also am not really reading anything there. I read fairly little on AO3 either tbf. I have a huge "marked for later" list, but very little time.

[vriddy]

I'd love for a space that had a culture that felt more geared toward community-building.

It would be so wonderful if the site could evolve this way!! I wonder if that might be really hard to achieve in a multi-fandom space, when few people read canon-blind. But it'd be nice if a friendly, "all in this together/all parts of the same community even if our fandoms differ" kinda supportive culture could emerge. (I feel silly writing this when most single fandoms don't even manage not to devolve into ship wars, but, well. It's good to dream, and smaller spaces have a better chance to provide that kind of space :D)

[mistressofmuses]

That's a good point: things being multi-fandom makes it harder in some ways, because while fannish groups share a lot of commonalities, it's harder to meaningfully interact with other people's work when you don't have the fandom in common. In the days of single-fandom archives, you at least had a fairly built-in starting point to meet people with!

On the one hand, I think a lot of my longer-standing/stronger/better fandom friendships are with people who I don't share fandoms with (or only occasionally do in passing.) But on the other, while we have a lot of fannish interests in common, and can commiserate about writing or art or the like, we mostly aren't commenting on each others' works.

And lol, yes. I know the feeling: it's hard to find chill spaces for single fandoms that don't fall into ship wars or infighting over characterization or whatnot! Much less for a pan-fandom community... but still, the older smaller archive style is a lot more conducive to that sort of mutually-supportive attitude, or at least I think it could be!

[cornerofmadness]

That's interesting in that I've crossposted fic to multiple archives without saying anything but it would never occur to me that anyone would want to know that. It looks likely I'll end up at squidge too I have found it odd when I DO see a random few saying they're crossposting (mostly to FFN) and wondered why they mentioned it.

I was wondering how much readership squidge was getting

[vriddy]

part of the appeal of SqWA for me as a reader [...] is that I find stories on there I would never have known existed on AO3, simply due to the sheer volume of fics on AO3.

This is such an interesting perspective :D A kind of self-selected curation aspect.

I wonder if this changes depending on the fandom. I know I've seen several people in my circles mention they would no longer post on AO3 at all. But I think maybe their audience was already mainly on Dreamwidth already? I know a couple of exchanges were considering running on SqWA as well, this may be the kind of events that starts changing/building a different kind of site culture. It'll be interesting to see!

Looking a little bit at my fandom's tag though (a mega fandom with hundred of thousands of fics on AO3), most fics have a single digit amount of hits... It does seem like you better be ready for silence, and that posters maybe don't share ships or interest in reading each other's works. I'm sure they'd love comments if they're posting without disabling them, though! But yeah, I can really see how posting without reading or otherwise participating on the site can make the potential interaction feel a lot colder. I wonder if this is a case of everyone looking at what everyone else is doing and not taking the first step to create the kind of culture they'd like to see, but, yeah, this is hard. It'll be interesting to follow. Thanks for the food for thought!

[quillpunk]

exchanges running on SqWA instead of AO3 would be really interesting. i haven't seen anything about that, but i've been pretty on the outs with fandom since i'm no longer using twitter, and tumblr is hit or miss. (the new desktop design is literally unusable for me, hashtag accessibility fail) no-one i know has to my knowledge ditched ao3 entirely but yeah i think it's likely their audience is already here in that case. or they've got a lot of courage!

the journey to find fandom on DW is long and difficult, sigh.

[yourlibrarian]

I also use Squidge and have noticed it is quite quiet except for one person who seems to want to comment on anything -- maybe to wind up with occasional comment gift cards?

I have had people comment to me there, but I think it's also important for people to link to their posts there (as opposed to other locations) to encourage kudos if not comments.

I have also gone looking for works a few times but found very little in my fandoms, or that interested me, which is also part of the problem with a smaller site. However I have planned to spend more time poking around there. Currently I'm too busy to do so and am reading very little fic right now (and also paused in moving content there). But I think it's got a growing awareness and this may change with time.

Interestingly I remember the early days of AO3 and there was a lot of complaining that people didn't comment there either 😉